Minutes of Öcalan's meeting with the Kandil delegation: Part 3

Rastinews — We are publishing the third and final installment of the meeting said to have taken place on February 1-2 between Öcalan and the Kandil delegation (Helin Ümit, Duran Kalkan, Sabri Ok...), the first two parts of which we have already run.

Dear Rastî followers and readers, we have shared with you two installments of notes -- from a meeting said to have taken place on February 1-2, 2026 between Abdullah Öcalan, state officials and the Kandil delegation -- that came into our possession. We are now sharing the third installment with you.

HERE IS PART THREE

THE CHAIRMAN ARRIVED AT 9:34 A.M. ON FEBRUARY 2, 2026.

THE CHAIRMAN ARRIVED AND SPOKE STANDING UP…

"I concentrate before I sleep. If I don't produce a project or two, I can't breathe. We'll discuss this now -- you'll see," he said.

The Leadership added, "Let the comrades come too, then we'll start -- we won't begin without them."

Then the comrades arrived.

Hamili: I greet the comrades. Seeing you here is a truly historic thing. Welcome.

Chairman: These men follow Duran Kalkan more than they follow me. That's the truth. I'm the one loyal to the truth. They're a bit Osmancı too -- a bit Osmancı, a bit your line. I've said this before.

Now let's start again. We're making a serious mistake on method. Let's settle on a method. What did Bahçeli say -- he said, if necessary, do what you said on the plane, come to parliament, speak, and let the right to hope be applied. He's saying, if you have the power, do it. He said, "You're hostile to official politics." How can I not be angry? The state is a different matter here. It's the very essence of the top of society. Great care must be taken. Politicians are a lower stratum. We must impose the state's greatness on them too. (He picked up the clipping about the kilim story) Bahçeli spoke in his own way while buying a kilim. He says the road to prosperity runs through here. Let me say this about the AKP too -- I won't fall for merchants' games. Just yesterday their spokesman spoke. I'll speak harshly, but out of respect, I won't. He says there are some remnants in Iraq we need to deal with too. Hey, you fool, hey, you frivolous man. They have hidden agendas, and they're making the state's solution harder. They hide behind Turkish nationalism, and they're the ones who twisted this great republic into its present shape. Supposedly wearing nationalism as a mask, they're serving those who should be counted as the Turk's enemies. Yet they know full well there's no Turk without the Kurd, no Kurd without the Turk. That's what they're trying to break. Bahçeli says the road to prosperity runs through here. Insolent, vile man -- who do you think you are? You will learn your place! They'll drop this language, and I'll fulfill what my word requires. From now on, I declare war on them. You cannot talk like that. You will stop them. Countless crypto agents and professors are attacking me like madmen. This won't do -- there's no place or ethic for it in any book. I will fulfill the requirements of my call in Iran, Syria and Iraq too. There's no dragging this out. I'm continuing the process that began with Bahçeli's call -- I have to. But the means and the opportunity for it must be provided. Otherwise they'll just keep attacking, keep insulting. This won't do. This morning some vile man said we need to wipe out everyone, including those in Iraq. They might say these people have seized the state -- that's not true. I don't accept it. Did I make my call? I did. Did we impose a ceasefire and pull back? We did. Did the comrades listen to me and not fire a single bullet? They didn't. In return, you must do what's required. They've launched a campaign figuring out how to wreck this. I'm being attacked. You must stop it. I won't drag this out further. Sometimes I cut myself off mid-sentence, in case it's misunderstood. But I wanted to briefly convey this much about method. You cannot cast me as some madman or lout and fight your battles through me. The first person to call me "sir" was Bahçeli -- and that same man once wanted me executed. Now others call me 'the terrorist chief.' You will mind your manners. Ruling party or opposition, whatever you are, you have no right to do this. You will use respectful language. I've been thinking about method and solution since last night. They're introducing a certain distortion. I understood it this morning. They're saying let's do this through other channels, not through Apo. For one thing, we've been working on capability and competence for a year now. I have sufficient strength. This group has arrived. I've had my criticisms. These comrades are in no state to simply defer to me out of fear -- they've sacrificed their lives. That's why this will be a completion and decision-making meeting. We'll ask: is there resolve or not? Do I have the strength? We'll see. In a day or two, Şahin Cilolar will arrive. You'll observe whether we have sufficient strength or not. We've been testing this for a year and a half. It's a completion meeting. It's the decision meeting for our debate on ending the armed organization. You'll see this strength of mine embodied in the comrades. Convincing politics is your job. Tomorrow I'll do the same for Iraq and for PJAK. I had a letter. They didn't send it. I've made no error of method. You will go to parliament and to the state and say, "Öcalan is competent and capable; Öcalan's decision-making power is now fully established." You will convince politics and the state. Trying to use Öcalan as a front is pimping, plain and simple. My capability is mine; my strength is mine. This capability and competence belong to me. They will not distort it. The 40-year war didn't turn out the way I wanted. It became an attempted uprising, and you botched it with your own hands. I criticized it. I have my own strength. But if it doesn't work, I'll withdraw to my corner, and you'll carry on with your own style of war -- but not in my name. You'll say: I'm not running from war, but I couldn't carry out Öcalan's style. You'll declare: here I am, developing a new leadership and a new style of war, but I'm not doing it in Öcalan's name. I've put up with your style for 40 years. But ask me how I put up with it. They branded me a baby killer. Anyone can be called a baby killer -- I cannot. I've suffered its pain for 40 years, but you will no longer make me carry the cost of your style of war. You will be the owners of both the war and the peace. Dissolve it if you like, but you cannot make me a tool of your own style of war. If that's how it is, go and end terrorism with your own politicians who fight terrorism. I'm telling the movement the same: go and run your own style of war without using me as a tool. There are a thousand mistakes in your style of war. The war machine, the war apparatus, is coming. If there's no result within three months, it will be like Aleppo. In Aleppo, a wing acted in the state's name. These respected officials also took action. That's why I thanked them for stopping the bloody scene. The Euphrates was crossed the way the Rubicon is crossed. There's a famous saying -- once the Rubicon is crossed, the war can no longer be stopped. So I said, if the Euphrates has been crossed, it carries the same meaning. Anyway, through our efforts, an understanding was reached. But the implementation will again fall on my shoulders. A difficult task. A task that will determine the fate of the Middle East.

Now, in conclusion: they can't hang a drum around my neck and let everyone strike it with whatever mallet they please. If you have the ability, you can act on it yourselves. There's a committee -- meet, discuss it, do it. But if you're going to pin it all on me, it won't work that way. When Mehmed the Conqueror was just fourteen, after his father Murad II had ceded him the throne, he struggled in battle and wrote his father a letter: "Father, if you are the sultan, come and take command of the army; if I am the sultan, then I command you -- come and take command of the war." That's how Murad II won the Battle of Varna. And I say the same: now, if you are the pashas, go on, carry the war forward yourselves. But if you cannot, then let me bring about this peace, let me end the war. Politics devoured the great empire bit by bit, and the final retreat was only halted in the 1920s.

You couldn't make peace, and you couldn't make war either. That's the state politics is in. Now you've called me to the task. Forty mallets have appeared, all beating the same drum. How is anyone supposed to bear that noise? I said this back in the 2012 process too. You'd tied me up while 150 dogs attacked. Let me fight them myself, I said. I said this against FETÖ. But they laughed it off. Later it came out what had really happened. There's a saying -- can forty years of blood turn into stew... I'm not running away; the resolve has formed. The count of decisions has also come out at a sufficient level in this meeting. What remains is the question of strength and capability. We have to strive to secure this peace. While buying the kilim, Bahçeli says point A is the Republic of Turkey and point B is the Founding Leadership. If the state, through Bahçeli, is saying this in the state's name, the others will follow too. I pay no mind to the other parties' charlatanism. Other parties cannot sacrifice this to their own point-scoring. It's a vital matter for the state -- this moment is that moment. It was requested of me; they came themselves and met with me. This is my decision-making power, and my capability has been proven. I've been patient for a year and a half for this. You will go and state this competence. Our condition is this: as required, Öcalan must take charge of the executive. This is necessary. Whether politics decides this or not, let them decide. I'm speaking of my own free will, and the people here are speaking free of pressure too. You've read the documents, and you filled in what was missing by reading further. You're now in a position to make new decisions. There is work for you to do on this process. I liked the dissolution congress -- it was better than I'd hoped. The letters, too, were more than mature. But there are still steps you're waiting for. You're right about that. But there's confusion in politics, a Gordian knot. I'll try to untangle it over another week or two. I will not tolerate this buffoonery and demagoguery. An absolute end to rent-seeking state management. An end to sinking the state this deep into debt. The state must be reformed. This institution, too, has a duty to carry the state through a hundred years of reform. The head of the institution invited me, and I said I support reform. A shared, common mind was proposed. I'm in, all the way. The organization's loyalty is plain to see. So there's no need to drag this out. Where there are political weaknesses, security weaknesses, I'll do whatever is within my power. I look at it, and politics has grown deeply rotten. Without intervention, it will suffer great harm. The Kurdish dynamic has been set in motion -- I know it well. I'm not threatening anyone, but if this dynamic breaks away from the state, the damage will be irreparable. Because I didn't let this dynamic break from the state, because I stopped the uprising, Israel and the Greeks weren't left a handspan of ground -- that's why I've been able to hold my ground. They tried to steer me toward Oslo, saying come, let's run the state together. Since '93, I haven't done what they wanted. So what happens if this comes to nothing? You bear responsibility for the war-making capacity of the most rebellious people on earth, a dynamic sixty million strong.

Why didn't you develop this yourselves? You've been struggling for 40 years. Look at what age you've reached. Look at the sorry state you're in, you poor souls. If I say it's the women who are carrying you, that will be misunderstood. I believe peace has a 90 percent chance of succeeding, but let's say politics jams up. You will abandon this blind, objective-contra style of war and develop real precautions instead. How should TÜSAŞ be judged? The timing of August 15 was wrong, and it came two years too late. It should have been a response to the atrocities in the prisons. We demonstrated our armed-propaganda strength in Siverek. Castro repelled Diaz with just ten cadres. Diyap's forces were no more numerous than yours, yet they defeated the French. You say Hogır did it -- fine, then you're the one responsible for preventing this. You're the political commissar here. You've resisted a great deal, worked hard. You have little life left in you; a dead fighter of a dead existence cannot win. What's being inflicted on me right now is psychological torture. I carried even the war the way you'd carry a folk song. If it goes on like this, they won't let you survive. They'll turn on you the way they did in Aleppo.

That's why the state must intervene in politics and set it on the right course. I, too, will work for peace, extending this to PJAK and other areas. Bahçeli said it himself -- "this is necessary for prosperity." The drum is around my neck, and everyone who passes by beats it. The sound of the drum is dreadful. Amid the cacophony, the sound of peace can't be heard. It just can't be heard. Why are we dragging this out? Eighty percent of society wants peace. Support for the method, though, is put at only 20 percent. Society is saying this method is wrong. Let's not subject a society uneasy about the method to torture. Let me wrap up. You can propose your own paths and methods. I know the officials' job is very hard too. Talk of timeframes and so on is also mistaken. The moment is now. This is a day to succeed, a day of new decisions, a day of struggle. Let's not understand struggle as meaning war. What did I say after Aleppo -- I said, "today is a new day of Kuvayi struggle." Meaning, let's work round the clock, and the upheavals in the region are affecting our work. Even saying three months is wrong. Putting off the timing is gambling. We need to act now. Nobody knows what Trump will do to Iran, and how soon.

Official: Four months ago, no one could have predicted America would act this way in Syria. What's dangerous in Syria is that they also tried to stoke an Arab-Kurdish war between peoples who are meant to live together as ancient neighbors. In Europe, there was a knife attack on an action held by your side. There were people wounded.

Chairman: Actually, through this conflict, what they wanted was to stoke a Kurdish-Turkish conflict. The Arab war is almost a side issue.

Hamili: If a step were taken, have you discussed its legal grounds? Have you discussed what would happen?

Chairman: What are you saying, bave min? These men are locked in, politics is locked in. But we're talking about something beyond that. There are Arab nationalist crypto agents. There are academic figures too -- they're crypto as well.

Official: Arab capital stepped in to steer things. Through money and steering, they pushed to have it defined as the Syrian Arab Republic. But that was the wrong formulation. Abdullah Bey had proposed the Syrian Republic. The Iran issue went the same way. It's like the greyhound-and-hare business.

Chairman: I call it crypto Arab nationalism. There's a mindset in Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Turkey that targets Kurds, and in Syria that targets Turkey.

Abbas Ark: The Saudis reportedly gave four billion dollars.

Chairman: Qatar gave even more -- forty billion, I'm talking about Qatar. Take what I'm saying seriously. They set Sharaa on the attack. There are vile designs at work.

Sabri Ark: We discussed this too. We said the same thing. In particular, the language used by the media and by the state isn't changing.

Chairman: That language is wrong. You're blaming the state. Crypto agents circulate on every channel. I'm telling you, they're stoking Turkish nationalism. You're saying the state is doing this. It's not the state making this happen.

Cryptos are active through Iran too. You know the crypto-nationalists better than I do. They neutralize the state and unleash it against us. They have embedded themselves inside the Turkish state. You know who Van Baeth is. He is going to Hungary. He is organizing the Zionist Congress. There is a Kurdistan branch — the Barzanis... Crypto-nationalism is nationalism in the service of other states. The KDP and Barzani are the same. I say this so it is known. There is an effort to pit Kurds and Turks head-on against each other. I am not saying to fight them. This has been going on since the Crusades.

Abbas Ark: Jews do this the most.

Chairman: Yes. Crypto-Turkish nationalism through Salonica and crypto-Kurdish nationalism through Mosul have both been put in the service of Zionism. This goes back to Abdulselam. The Turkish-Kurdish conflict weakened the Empire — that has to be understood. How else can I put it? They want to make Kurds and Turks fight each other. They tried to drive the Kurds out of Aleppo and spent millions of dollars on it. That is what the National Pact meant, and Mustafa Kemal was forced to make concessions. Hüseyin Avni, the governor of Erzurum, said we cannot make concessions. Mustafa Kemal replied: if we do not make concessions, we will not be able to found the Republic. Let us found the state first, then we will create the opportunity, he said. Now you must act in that spirit. Now they say: we launched the offensive against the Kurds, we won, let's finish it...

Official: That matter is settled in Syria. An agreement was reached. Talks are continuing now. Syria is moving on suitable ground. I think the other comrades should speak too.

Hamili: I knew you would abide by the decisions we took. We thank you. It was good that the congress went this way. We said comrade Abbas is the party's pillar and ideologue.

Abbas: We came here from a leadership meeting. We came with a shared view.

Chairman: How many of you met?

Abbas Ark: Thirteen or fourteen people. Each of them carries representative weight. We discussed it together.

Official: Karayılan also issued a call and told people to take to the streets for an uprising.

Chairman: Purging the cryptos inside the state is not easy. Large sums of money are involved. A reminder from us.

Hamili: There were three points of mutual positioning along the Metina line. Is the problem still ongoing? Have precautions been taken there?

Abbas Ark: There is no risk of clashes.

Sabri Ark: Our leadership has said certain things. We cannot put both feet in one shoe in the snow and winter. As long as they do not interfere, no clash will break out. We are in control — not a single shot has been fired.

Chairman: I think these comrades are in control and are carrying out their duties. The Şahin comrades are doing their jobs too. Discipline is complete. We cannot know what tomorrow brings.

official: There is an emotional mood. There were clashes in the field. The withdrawal, the evacuation, must continue. Credit should be given — the withdrawal from the more strategic areas has already happened. The withdrawal from the place we are discussing now is not as strategic. Earlier it was said the timing was not right for withdrawal. They explained it along with the shortcomings. Then the withdrawal decision was announced and it created a positive atmosphere. Drones and so on were shot down. But in the area we evacuated, we searched for the bodies together, side by side. That was positive. We visited all the political parties. Mr. İ. went to the parliamentary commission. A hundred questions came up. He said let's not do anything that would damage Turkish pride or Kurdish honor. That was reassuring and good for conveying things to the public.

Chairman: There is no doubt about their sincerity. I need to be at the head of implementation. I need to be in a position to implement things. My strategic goal is peace, and it must be achieved. You call it my freedom — don't express it with the wrong words. This matter is necessary for implementation. They may take Iran, but the real target is Turkey. There has been anger at the Kurds since the Crusades, for having disrupted the historical plan. They turned the Arabs against the Turks. Now what they are trying to achieve is to create a Kurd who is anti-Turk. They have been doing this since Saladin. The British general comes to the grave and says, 'Rise, Saladin, I have come.' Who is Karayılan? A Kurd. From Arban. He routed the French. The Suruç tribes put up great resistance. They pushed France back. In the Karayılan ballad, even the line "strike the Kurdish lackey" was changed to "strike the Turkish lackey"... Anatolia is being encircled from the Middle East. What can a Turkish force limited to a fifty-thousand-strong army in central Anatolia do? They have spread the idea in Turkey that the more you curse the PKK, the more of a Turkish nationalist you are. That is a lie and a fraud. What does it have to do with anything? They are angry with me because I spoiled their game. Bahçeli sent me gifts. In return, I sent this carpet. Is that a lie? No. Bahçeli understood my role and answered with the message he sent when he received the kilim. I will not remain without self-defense against the other fascist bloc.

official: Self-defense is a dangerous concept.

Chairman: That is exactly why I say we must build the legal and political ground for it. There is no harm in that. Without it, there is no solution either. If what is necessary is not done, the weapons will not be laid down. I say this as a statement of fact.

Hamili: Has anyone opposed democratic integration? I'm curious. Is the positive revolution being discussed?

Abbas Ark: There is no such thing. Discussions of the positive revolution have continued since Defending a People. There has been a transformation.

Helin: There had already been a discussion and a transformation before.

Chairman: Yes, there has been a development and a transformation. (The Chairman picked up the meeting draft and read the first item.) From rebellion against the Turkish Republic to integration — neither assimilation nor a separate nation-state. Democratic integration. There is the method of assimilation. They applied the 7-T formula. Mehmet Bayrak had explained this.

Two: the nation-state project led by the Barzanis. Israel is aiming for this too. They cannot defend any idea outside the nation-state. It resembles the Arab emirates. We rejected nation-statism. Another reason is that I have a struggle with Barzani — I have stood against primitive nationalism. The cryptos accuse me of founding a second Israel. But I rejected that years ago. They have men inside the Turkish state who are building a second Israel. The third way is democratic integration. It can happen by force too, but the correct way is voluntary and democratic — that is, by the will of the people. We want to integrate with the Republic, that is, with its society. As cadres, you are undergoing intensive training. These two drafts were prepared for that concentrated study. (Referring to the Manifesto and the D. Integration document)

Another item: why the PKK's war of existence could not turn into a war of freedom. The dissolution of real socialism and so on... By the time we reached '93, existence had been proven. Özal sent word. I thought it over, and he turned out to be right. Demirel also said it, in Midyat — he said we recognize the Kurdish reality. Ahmet Türk and Sırrı Sakık had come to Aleppo. I met them but did not understand why they had come. Much later they said Demirel had directed us to go. I thought, have they come to collaborate? At the time, their stance was justified and valuable. I was not politically strong then. We were already branding everyone who came as a collaborator — just like what you said after TUSAŞ. When real socialism dissolved, I went into a search, but later I concluded that the PKK had reached the end of its shelf life. We proved Kurdish identity with our own lives and blood. It is not something that began with Sharaa or the AKP. There is Hayri's famous saying. When he decided on the death fast, he said, 'We succeeded.' This tradition, the one that says we succeeded, is what has proven Kurdish existence. Seyit Rıza's famous words, 'let it be your burden,' are of the same kind. The meaning of the Diyarbakır resistance and our '92 uprising, including the great resistance in Botan. But we could not carry it forward. The PKK could not properly deliver on the politics, diplomacy, or war of this tradition. In the 2000s, the mental transformation began with the Democratic Republic. In 2012 it started to take shape but was sabotaged. FETÖ nullified it.

I will explain shortly. We have forces. If legal guarantees are given, they will come and join politics. But that requires a guarantee. A guarantee granting the right to democratic politics must be given. Let's say comrade Bese comes. Armed, branded a ringleader — the police post arrests her. They have to, because there must be law. Facing aggravated life imprisonment — how would she come? Comrade Bese is valuable and brave. She was brave in war and in peace alike. Give her my regards. Bahçeli himself said he wished there were law so they could come. Go to parliament, to the commission, and explain all this.

Third item: the great deadlock in the Republic... As the nationalists approached the 2000s, they used up all the war resources left over from that ideology against us. Their program hit a deadlock in the war. They had their own ringleaders too. Erbakan developed a formula aimed at us — let's impose a five-year political ban on the leading figures, he said. A letter came to me. We met in Haddam's office. I received the letter and wrote a reply. Then Erbakan was toppled from power. This much is clear. The nationalists reached a great deadlock, and they were made to reach it. Erbakan fell, and the AKP was brought to power through an operation originating in London. They played a game on Erbakan and left him drenched in blood and sweat. His leader's last words were, 'Zionism brought me to this state.' His son now speaks in a different tone. The British-Arab relationship, and Qatar, and Barzani, can be included in this. Their shared project is to push me and the PKK entirely outside this formula. It started with "no to Apo, yes to the PKK." The dismantling was developed on that basis. Erbakan too was targeted through us. My being brought here was a Mossad operation. They said, let's pull the pin, let it explode like a bomb there. Mikail Robin had said Apo had three months left to live, that he would be hanged. The famous General Atilla came. He said, four generals are waiting for you, write a text, they're waiting for you. My focus on this had already begun back in the '90s. I wrote up the democratization program briefly. Then he went and came back and said the execution had been halted. The General Staff was not closed to a solution either. They said there would be no execution and so on. They could have accepted a solution, in order to overcome the deadlock. As you know, an assassination was prepared against Kıvrıkoğlu. I believe a soldier next to him was shot in Cyprus. Likewise, the contact you sent through Brussels was İsmail Karadayı. He had made contact in the name of the Community Relations Bureau (TİB). They had also made indirect contact with comrade Sabri while inside.

Sabri Ark: Yes, they made indirect contact with us.

Chairman: At the time they said Erbakan could not do it, but the military could. That was actually somewhat right. Then everything ended with the September 11 attack. Someone came on Ecevit's behalf. He came once and never came again. Ecevit's illness worsened. Ecevit was against the execution anyway. He passed from the illness. After that, the solution was shelved. This is exactly what I mean by the development of the Kurdish-Turkish war. Had the conditions existed then, we could have developed this solution.

Another item... Overcoming the deadlock with the AKP... This is very important. Is the AKP watching, trying to understand? They were already present during the 2015 process. There is a consensus on the removal of Assad, and on the removal of the Kurds within the relationship with Sharaa as well. Notice that every London-based report has leveled the YPG accusation. Even this morning, the line that clearly originates from there is the claim that the YPG is a terrorist organization. This is a British imposition and a British scheme. They want me made completely ineffective in this region, and they want to clear the way for Barzani's nation-statism in my place. I too was placed under strict isolation. Execution was even put on the table, unless the General Staff blocked it. The result was isolation. The goal was to create a collaborator Kurd. Just recently Barzani came to Cizre with his armed men. Bahçeli criticized him, then took a jab at Bahçeli, then cooled off. He said the old wolf has resurfaced. The reason for that anger was the importance and meaning Bahçeli attached to me, to Öcalan. Now we are following Syria in dialogue with the state. The British brought in Sharaa. This is plain to see. What was given to Israel under the Paris agreement? It gave new territory. I say to the AKP spokesman: why then do you have nothing to say about Israel's autonomy — that means you have the British behind you. You'll call the Kurd a terrorist but say nothing to them. Then I will say your relationship is with the British.

Şahin Cilo is a comrade of mine. They say there can be no agreement with a terrorist. He asks, can a signature be put on it? A signature was put on it. Now they tell him to go and surrender to Barzani. They said the same to me. We will not surrender to Barzani. I will propose a project and a plan shortly. Let me continue with the framework. The nationalists have exhausted their ideology on the Kurdish solution. Now, instead of a secular-masked ideology, they want to pursue the Kurdish solution along an Islamic line. They have formed many religious orders. They were going to transform the PKK base.

As for the Barzanis, they are angry that I am leading the democratic Republic. Barzani has no plan beyond this. This struggle will continue, and some figures within the PKK may also be against me. But I will continue with this project. The plan to neutralize the PKK through the AKP is also ongoing.

Fourth item: the historical undercurrent — the dissolution of capitalist modernity, the construction of democratic modernity. If you examine both the Seljuk state structure and the Ottoman one in history, the presence of the Turks in the Middle East is an existence resting on two pillars. Anyone who looks at history with some understanding has to acknowledge this. It was Sultan Sanjar who first used the term Kurdistan. He is also the namesake of today's Kurdistan province in Iran. It matters that its center was Hamadan. He was a Turkish sultan, but the place over which he built his sovereignty belonged to Kurdish culture. To this day, Hamadan is the cradle of two cultures. We have also made sense of Malazgirt within this framework. Ahlat, the Marwanids, and so on belong here too. On May 15, three months before the Battle of Malazgirt, where is Alp Arslan? He spends two months in Silvan, the Marwanid capital. He prepares for the battle there. If this is not a joint Kurdish-Turkish war, what is it? Otherwise, the Byzantines would have driven them back to south of Lake Van. Alp Arslan is as much a Kurdish leader as he is a Turkish one. This is the real historical undercurrent.

If there had been a Kurdish reform, becoming a world empire like the British would have been easy. Because the British learned a lesson from this, they are determined to turn the Kurdish element against the Turkish state system. At first I too called the Turkish Republic colonialist, genocidal, but over time we understood this was the continuation of a larger British plan. Leaving me not even a handspan of land anywhere in the world is part of this plan. Our answer to this is the solution of democratic modernity, the solution of democratic integration.

Article Five, dialogue between the state and the PKK. Starting from Sheikh Maqsoud, a coup mechanism has been set in motion. It is highly organized both in government and in the opposition. Political parties serve as its strike force — parties like the Key Party, the Victory Party, and the İYİ Party. These are the strike force.

Dialogue with the state is important and valuable. We could even call it a substantive development. Dialogue between an organization built on violence and the state is a development in its own right. There is no need to play this down or dismiss it. This alliance is also in keeping with the spirit of socialism. Given how deeply crypto elements have embedded themselves in the Turkish state apparatus, the effort of those pursuing this search is all the more valuable. But the strategic error must also be corrected — meaning I must take charge of the executive.

Öcalan being at the head of this task is a historic duty. This move is as valuable as the national liberation war, at the very least. Because a Kurdish dynamic has been set in motion. It is essential that I stand at its head. The Turkish side will give up assimilation, the Kurdish side will give up rebellion. I will be at the head of this too. It is you who will secure political acceptance of this. Just like the coup mechanism, state reason has also been set in motion. Our effort will neutralize this force that stands outside the norm.

Article Six, I explained the conflict between the norm state and the state outside the norm.

Article Seven, work with the norm state through common reason is continuing.

Article Eight, the February 27 Peace and Democratic Solution Declaration equals a Democratic Republic that takes democratic society as its basis. From a statist solution to a democratic-society solution. Democratic society will be tied to the democratic republic through laws. The republic we tie ourselves to must be democratic. Because Kurds stand outside the law. Legal regulation is needed for this. This will integrate the Kurds into the democratic republic.

Article Nine, the basic backbone of the practical solution — what has been described so far is the theoretical solution — is the drafting of laws. Laws are the foundation of democratic-society politics.

Article Ten, the manner in which this process has been carried out has turned my position into a problem. Will it be with Öcalan or without Öcalan? Perhaps, out of deference, I too have given some ground on this. We made a mistake — in fact, when Bahçeli made his first call, I should have demanded what was required then. Now the knot lies here: will Öcalan have his freedom or not? If I am not at the head of the executive, it has become impossible for this to move forward. I must be the one to carry out this integration.

Helin: Mr. Chairman, the Congress resolution declared that the implementer of these decisions is Leader Apo.

Chairman: Yes, rather than being at the head of the executive, I have been turned into a target. An Öcalan bogeyman has been created. They are running this operation with tremendous secrecy. Öcalan will integrate the Kurds into the republic. The PKK accepts this too. So this obstacle has also been overcome. There is no other figure in the Kurdistan geography who can achieve this.

Abbas Ark: That is also our leadership's decision.

Chairman: Isn't that so, friend Abbas? Turkish girl Helin, are you afraid? Do people who dedicate their lives like this get afraid? No one but Öcalan can do this. Not to flatter myself. There is no one else who can carry out this integration. You supported Barzani so much. He has a huge lobby. They want to reach into everywhere, including Syria. Is that integration into the republic, or is it a great calamity?

Ömer: Why won't they accept the Chairman as an interlocutor? They don't want to carry the problem into the political arena. That's why they won't accept him as an interlocutor. What they want is not to solve the problem through Öcalan but to dissolve the organization. The state has not made a decision to solve the problem. What's needed here is for the state to make a decision. If it makes that decision, they may accept the Chairman as a political interlocutor.

Chairman: In my view, what is blocking this is the political establishment.

Ömer: That's right. Without achieving this, we will just be pounding water in a mortar. The entire burden is being loaded onto this team of officials. But this is not something that will be resolved by one team going back and forth.

Ergin: The matter has reached the point where things cannot move forward without the Chairman. It's clear there is no problem on the movement's side. From here on, a change of format is necessary. You once said: "They've bound my hands and feet with chains, and then they show me a pool. Get into this pool and swim, they tell me." That metaphor sums up the situation. Had it not been for the delegation's efforts, the situation would have reached even more of a deadlock in Aleppo. In fact, it has hit a wall ten times up to now.

Mahmut: We didn't think this process was possible, yet here it is unfolding. While the effort of the movement, of an important wing of the state, and of the Leadership continues, it is essential that a new format come into play. Even this meeting of ours is significant in showing what stage the issue has reached. The state's delegation, the movement's delegation, and the Leadership are at the same table. The Turkish Republic as we knew it could not have done this — which means there is a doctrinal shift within the state. We should take this seriously. Here, we are also witnessing the Chairman's daily concentration on this. So that all these efforts are not blown to waste, it is essential that the process move to a change of format.

Raperin: The points raised by our friends are important. This process needs to continue in a new form.

Chairman: Is anyone uneasy about the process? As for the women's movement…

Raperin: Among young comrades who see the developments as one-sided, emotional reactions can arise. The language used by the press and by politics is drawing a lot of backlash. Rojava has deepened this somewhat further.

Hamili: What are they saying?

Raperin: They say the state did it.

Sabri Ark: They say there is a Turkish racism inside Turkey that has cloaked itself in an Arab identity. The language of the media is very disturbing. This is putting pressure on us.

Chairman: This is what I mean by crypto.

Hamili: Did the Arab forces in Rojava break away?

Sabri Ark: They'll report on it themselves when they arrive.

Ömer: Our question is: did they fail to foresee this?

Sabri Ark: It would be more accurate for them to report it themselves once they arrive.

Hamili: Was there a call from Bahoz? They had the Chairman listen to it here.

Helin: Decisions are made by leaderships. It would not be right to comment through individuals.

Raperin: Because there is no in-depth analysis, there is a blanket definition of the state and an approach built on it. But alongside that, there is also a will and a desire. If the legal process is opened up, we can even turn Turkey into a rose garden. We also have the strength to halt social decay. We have the strength and the will to embrace the country as a whole.

Chairman: We used to know the state as a homogeneous structure. But that view has been superseded. The state is a summary of society. Even I discover new things about it every day. I can say I have reached a theoretical depth deep enough to teach even state officials. Its edges are not clear, its location is not clear. Marx's analysis of the state casts it as a committee at the command of the bourgeoisie. But that is not the reality of the matter. Whoever cannot correctly grasp the structure of the state cannot develop a proper war or a proper peace either. The delegation's members are attached to their own cause at least as much as we are. These are the most qualified cadres. We too perceived the PKK as a single, monolithic force. But there is a PKK reality that is not homogeneous, one that even we cannot fully control. Right now the comrade most loyal to us is Abbas, yet we wage our biggest fight against him. If we criticize him every day as the chief culprit, imagine the others. The state, then, is not a homogeneous, single-bodied structure. One has to approach it knowing this.

Raperin: We have been discussing your saying that "the measure of being a socialist is one's approach to women" and that "one who does not know how to develop a relationship with the state cannot be a socialist."

Chairman: A socialist must know how to build a relationship with women and with the state. Whoever fails at this cannot be a socialist. If a socialist does not master the problems in front of him, the outcome is disaster. Take Ali Haydar — he was the comrade most loyal to me, yet in practice he drowned while crossing a stream. On the question of women too, this has to be overcome. What was written as women's fate ten thousand years ago must be rejected. My whole effort is to increase these girls' power of thought, their power to walk their own path. One of our girls from Dersim was crossing the Zap river by cable car and fell right in the middle and drowned. We said let's teach these girls of ours some swimming. Drowning like that shouldn't happen. What was her name?

Raperin: Her name was Çiçek, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman: Yes, I remember now. We never gave much weight to the fake love that gets built up. The truest loyalty is being able to live it in practice — to make sense of how they endure such merciless conditions.

After comrade Rahime was martyred, a major had her virginity checked, and when it turned out she was a virgin, he said, "These people have truly succeeded." If our women comrades did not have this loyalty to us, most of our male structure would have fled. That is what real loyalty is. The male-dominant order has turned women's lives into unimaginable torture. That is why I said there can be no love under these conditions. With such relationships, as the comrade said, peace would have opened up like a flower. These girls are the ones who understand this best. The true builders of peace are the women comrades. They are the people of peace and democracy. There is production, there is development. Women build the new life better. They do not turn life into torture. That is why there is no love here. Nazım writes poetry too. I took seriously Adorno's view that poetry cannot be written while suffering is being endured. Inspired by that, I said that no love is lived here. What a man needs to do is not write poetry but restore women's dignity. Our male comrades need to drink a lot more water on this path. Even if it stays platonic, an idea, an ideology must be developed. Theoretical love develops women. Jineology must be very effective, mustn't it?

Helin: It is very effective both inside our ranks and outside them. The most universal problem is the woman question. No alternative has been produced. The real dynamism lies in jineology and in its women's dynamism.

Abbas Ark: Jineology is influential in many circles outside our ranks as well.

Chairman: In this geography, the cult of Inanna was built up over at least thirty thousand years, in the Taurus-Zagros range. The move made against women in the Epic of Gilgamesh needs to be examined. I read the book When God Was a Woman, and I recommend it to you too. How women were brought down is well understood from sacred books, tablets, and the findings that have been obtained. I mean the Babylonian period. With a great armed force, the Marduks invade India. We used to think it was Semitic Arab culture. It turns out Marduk, in terms of its word meaning, is Kurdish. Merd, mer, meaning man. What was Merdo? Tiamat — the root of this word is also Met, meaning aunt. Woman's power was reduced to zero in Babylon. The absolute fall of women, reflected in the Psalms, the Torah, and the Quran, is the effect of Babylon. Prophet Abraham himself comes out of Babylon. Enuma Elish is the version behind the Bible, the Torah, and the Quran. Muazzez İlmiye Çığ was the first person to know Sumerian. I read her work. The Quran and the others were inspired by Sumerian inscriptions. In Babylon the female goddess is defeated, and what remains is Marduk. Mythology is as valuable as religion. You cannot dismiss mythology as mere rumor. Women's dignity must be restored to them through mythology.

The goddesses are purged, and step by step there is a transition to monotheistic religions. In parallel with this, women are brought down. This is a historical-sociological interpretation.

Today, what a man needs to do is not declare his love to a woman, but serve her liberation. There is a famous example from the Buddha. A follower asks him how he can be even more devoted to him. The Buddha tells him to also give up his wife. The Buddha's second example is the dagger-in-the-back example, which we gave in the Manifesto.

Women, too, pursue a subtle politics in order to live with men. Against men, women also develop a politics of their own: if you cannot overcome the man, manage him through womanly tricks. Instead of this politics, women too need to develop a genuine ethical-aesthetic relationship. Feminists have a saying that the personal relationship is political. This is a legitimate defense.

Chairman: In religion, the matter of it being forbidden to hold a woman's hand shows the degree of women's enslavement. Woman is an animal, a slave — it is forbidden to hold her hand. That is the decree. Women, too, apply limitless tactics of devotion — makeup, beautifying themselves, and so on — yet they still cannot escape from men's grip.

Helin: Without this policy of massacre, women cannot be brought under control.

Chairman: The pressure on women is exercised in the name of God, in the name of sacred religion. Capitalism has produced such a distortion of freedom that woman has been turned into a queen of commodities to such a degree that she has been converted, in every respect, into an instrument of exploitation. Woman has been objectified and made into a commodity-queen positioned to attract every kind of commodity. She has been turned into an investment vehicle. Even the word exploitation falls short. There is not a single strand of her hair left unexploited. One should not underestimate women's own politics directed at men either. It does not kill, but she has a political system that she applies to men.

Helin: Let's call it a survival strategy.

Chairman: Yes. Selling herself to the man who will make the most use of her. You need to work this into jineology.

Helin: You said it is women who keep Kandil standing. Now it is the women's movement that keeps Kurdish society standing too. It is the women's movement that is the most peaceful and the most active. It is like this everywhere. This situation is having a strong effect on women around the world as well. Our ideological line is the stance of women's freedom. If that holds, it means we are preserving our ideological stance. This is true for the movement as a whole.

Chairman: Comrade Nesrin had sent a letter while still in prison. She had said, "I agree with you in every respect, but I don't see myself ready to join you physically." Can you live your 24 hours with me? You will live the way I see the world. Even those 24 hours have a night in them. She must have read it that way. She saw she could not manage it. You need a perspective that would bring even us into line. Woman is still seen as property. A one-sided declaration of love is a savage approach. The calculating killer struck the first blade into woman. Woman's spirit has been taken from her hands. She begs to please a worthless husband. That is the greatest cruelty. Woman, too, has made this a pretext for revenge and built a politics against man out of it — that is wrong. I once read comrade Gülten a quatrain. It went: Don't laugh like prostitutes... Don't cry like slaves... Smile like a free woman... Something like that.

Helin: In general, our women's structure has concerns about the process. This is directly tied to your subject too. We take the process very seriously. Woman must be at the negotiating table. Thanks to you, we have won a space of freedom within this movement. The Women's Movement asks why none of our representatives are here. We are concerned the level women have won so far will be pushed back, concerned about being shut back into the home. Whether a law will be passed on this, whether space will be opened — these questions are shaping our agenda.

Chairman: I am spending all my strength politicizing the woman question. We will make an effort on this soon. We may soon write a book called "Killing the Prostitute." A Socratic dialogue with woman is indispensable. Our intellectual forefather, as you know, is Socrates, with his method of dialogue. The source of inspiration is Diotima. Woman must always be at the negotiating table.

Official: Let's discuss the political issues first and finish with them. We can discuss the woman question afterward.

Helin: I think it's a subject directly tied to the agenda.

Official: There are always people cursing Atatürk, founder of the Republic of Turkey, and Erdoğan; Türkeş is accused of fascism, yet a section glorifies him too. In other words, changing certain discourses is tied to the process. Öcalan, too, carries a certain weight within Kurdish society. There are some labels — for instance, you call Sharaa "Jolani" and "HTS." We find these approaches amusing too. A commission unprecedented in the history of the Republic of Turkey was even set up. After a great deal of debate, a three-person commission came here. Isn't this recognizing an interlocutor?

Chairman: The commission was set up, but what matters is what it produces.

Official: Second, we are messengers. We too want new things to happen. But it's the politicians who will do this. All of it will come with time. We must do everything we can so the process isn't spoiled. We have dialogue with some sections of the press, but we can't reach everyone. Historic steps of this kind shouldn't be treated as if they never happened. In this process, close to a thousand comrades have been released at the very least. Most of the comrades on the list given to us were released. Not once was this acknowledged.

The discourse on Syria needs to change. Even simply stating what's been done matters. Within the constitutional work, raising Kurdish rights was achieved. What comes after this is up to you, and the state will support it too. Some opposing actions could be halted, the Rojava solution could be celebrated with enthusiasm. You could say you're bound to the Chairman's strategy for a solution, but that the legal process matters too. Bearing Turkey's side in mind, you could take some positive steps.

Chairman: If these steps hadn't been taken politically, the process would have gone very differently. I discussed this with Mr. İ. Managing the execution is a separate matter. I've opened this to you too — come together and make it happen.

Official: If we didn't believe we would resolve this with you, we wouldn't be here. This will happen with time. There's rhetoric about sanctifying death, declaring martyrs, and so on. It's not death but life that must be sanctified. Our goal is to keep people alive. Had Bahçeli not made that move, deaths would have continued. Street actions and the like should die down. This will also make it easier for the laws to pass.

Chairman: Only I can manage the integration process. This needs to be recognized. There's a historic project here. I value even my own health on this basis. This creates a terrible pressure. Levinas says the sense of responsibility is a human being's most basic feeling.

official: We understand people's worth better after we lose them. We grasped Mr. Sırrı Süreyya's importance better after his death. One should know a person's value while they're alive too.

Chairman: True. He had wanted to have a somewhat sincere chat with me, but I kept the subject on political lines. He wanted a bit of friendly banter. I pressed hard on the agenda. We ended the meeting. As we said goodbye, I told him we'd have a long, easy talk later, but he left and never came back.

Abbas Ark: Our movement, trying to grasp the meaning of this visit and the process, has no trouble contributing. The weight of the problem is plain too. But the process is dragging on. Patience is needed — let's be patient, but the risks are great at every moment. Nationalisms are being cultivated, and outside powers' plans are evident too. Time must be used well. The press was discussed. A year has passed, and it's clear no work has been done on the press yet. The issue is being presented as laying down arms and going home. There's a reaction to this. There is trust in, and participation in, the process and in Leader Apo's conduct of it. Without this the process couldn't have advanced at all. Everyone is ready for the democratic process Leader Apo is running, but no one credits talk of laying down arms and going home. Everyone says we are freedom fighters. The only real solution is opening the way for Leader Apo. That is our movement's sole position.

We haven't yet been able to assess the events in Syria in terms of their outcomes. The Rojava administration issued a statement. We haven't issued one yet, but we view it positively. There were mistakes, and we were uneasy about them too, but building consensus and influencing that area wasn't sufficient, and the result arrived where it did. We don't view the stage that's been reached negatively. We will make our statement as a Movement later. We haven't made a statement yet so as not to override the will of the administration concerned.

We also have a proposal: a tremendous sensitivity has arisen among Kurds around owning Rojava. There are those who want to pull this onto a nationalist line, and significant activism has emerged. Our request is that Leader Apo publish a message of greeting on this. If that happens, it would be effective.

Chairman: It's hard to get past this with a statement. A different kind of intervention is needed. I need to have a say over the execution. These things no longer happen through messages and letters.

Abbas Ark: There's weakness in our communication with the Leadership. It's slowing the process down a great deal. We can't convey our views sufficiently. It's being said that non-Syrian PKK members should leave. Everyone is present in Syria. They aren't the only foreigners in Syria. They're saying veterans, the sick, almost everyone should leave.

Chairman: Some reckless politicians act like this. But there can't be a withdrawal covering everyone in that way. There may be some names who've come to the fore; beyond that it isn't possible. Here too, to provoke me, they put an 80-year-old woman in prison and burn up her time served. On matters like this, I will act vengefully and demand a reckoning.

Abbas Ark: The International was raised in the draft. This work is underway. There's an initiative committee at work. If they succeed at this, a call will go out for a preparatory conference. A road map will be drawn up at the conference. There's comrade Fuat. There's Ertuğrul.

Chairman: A European socialist organization could be set up. A socialist is, in essence, an internationalist. There should be an institutional structure to bring this principle to life. There are millions of sympathizers from various nations, and we have friends. There's a need, and the conditions are suitable. Such work can be carried out. There can be foreign comrades in it too. Let's put our socialist base through training. Even if makeshift, a roof is needed. Nazan Üstündağ is in it too — she's an academic. Her international experience is strong. I don't know how much intellectual and socialist ability Fuat has.

Abbas Ark: There are foreigners. There's German comrade Erdal, there's comrade Tolhildan. Besides them there are some other comrades.

Chairman: Setting up a socialist organization of various nationalities in Europe can be done. Our base there needs to be organized on a socialist footing. The officials here call me obsessive (fixated) and skeptical. You lack the necessary follow-through and sensitivity. Constant attention and constant follow-up are needed.

official: What is HBDH—

Abbas Ark: Does the integration committee also need to include Turkish left-wing organizations?

Chairman: We want to include Turkey's left-wing organizations. Our call was addressed to them too. If necessary, a meeting can be held for them as well. As the political process develops, we want to include them too. If necessary, a group can come here. Contact between us is unavoidable.

official: Some of them are a problem — they live in Europe, and it would be a problem for them to come.

Abbas Ark: There are some who are here.

official: The MLKP is against it.

Sabri Ark: Some are opposed.

Chairman: In practice we set up the normalization committee. We set up a similar committee with Syria too. The real, major practical committee, though, is a proposal I turned over and found fitting. My proposal for a new committee: a Democratic Integration Committee. This won't consist only of us; it can include state officials, ruling and opposition parties, and if necessary other states — though that's not a requirement — and civil society organizations. I will run the execution, which is the politics conducted with the state. This committee will carry out the integration. If the work done so far amounts to fifty percent, this committee will carry out the remaining fifty percent. It will mature the discussions in sub-committees, and we will bring them to a conclusion in this committee. The political coordinator could be the head of an academy close to you, could be Mahir Kaynak's daughter, could be Süleyman Seyfi. The political coordinator could consist of 2-3 people — you appoint them. They will assist you; you decide their names. A balance between politics and security will be established. They will make their contribution.

This needs to be stated clearly about the process: we laid down our arms. This isn't surrender, it's joining the state. It's also been shown that this is consistent with socialist literature. The press needs a balance adjustment. If the integration committee is then set up, it can answer society's expectations.

Will parliament pass suitable laws or not? In all likelihood there will be gaps, aspects we don't like. We can view this as an interim solution. So there is no conflict as a response to gridlocked politics, so the absence of conflict continues, dialogue must go on. Meanwhile, rounds of political persuasion will start again. This is an interim solution. Its basis is that the absence of conflict continues and the process is sustained.

A suitable place must also be found to prepare the process's cadres. It could be Mahmur — the first group of 100 people will come. For training and integration, this could happen in Mahmur, Syria, or somewhere else. I could take part in a few of these meetings myself too. This is what I mean by an interim solution. Waiting for people to come one by one means wanting no solution at all. This will not happen. To get past this we propose an interim solution. Let's raise comrade Besê's group to 90. There could be meetings and training work of this kind for cadres being prepared for the process. I could stay here too. But the law must cover all the comrades. There could be a limited political ban for some comrades — five years, say. We won't come into parliament, but we'll preserve our other political rights. We will keep doing politics continuously. What's needed is a Democratic Politics covering all of this. To prove this, our first group will come, and we can hold them in a temporary area. An area like a temporary camp site that would take in everyone who comes could be set up.

If parliament takes a decision on this, the process won't drag on. Bahçeli's call includes this too. As for the atmosphere, Bahçeli called it the "27 February Peace and Democracy Climate." We must carry this to the whole country. He also said: if point A is Turkey, point B is the founding leader. If point A is the center, point B is the local. We are not defenseless; we are a democratic-republic group that is the most authoritative, the most rule-bound, the most versed in the law. As the creator of this process, as the guide of this many masses, I too am the state — but the democratic wing of the state. If the process reaches a conclusion, loyalty will grow even further.

Sabri Ark: A law that is patchy, that categorizes, that contains language ranking people above or below one another, cannot be accepted.

Chairman: Some political restrictions may be needed, symbolically, for the top leadership. If the AKP or the CHP lets water into this process, it will sink to the bottom of it. I must see Mr. İbrahim without fail. We've removed Syria as an obstacle. Postponing is dangerous; a meeting is essential.

Helin: The conditions for you to address Turkish society need to be created.

Chairman: I haven't yet moved into the new building. Its legal groundwork needs to be laid. I can't do this alone. There should also be a group of three comrades to help with things like cleaning. Alongside this, meetings with some delegations will also be arranged. My niece was going to come here.

Helin: Yes, Asmin is ready. She can come.

Chairman: Asmin, Fatma. But she alone isn't enough either; there should be 1-2 assistants.

Helin: Chairman, attacks are happening because a language directed at you has been built as state policy.

Chairman: Correct. A legal framework must be established. I need contact with scientists and the media. Otherwise, moving into that new building means nothing. I must be at the head of fifty percent of the executive so that I can run affairs. We envision a democratic integration committee. A political coordinator will strike the balance between security and politics. There must be a leaders' meeting. Political leaders must give their approval to it. A leaders' meeting will open the way for this. This way, my freedom will stop being a problem. The principle of hope is a detail. I have been in prison for 27 years; under the principle of hope, I should be released. Turkey has given a promise, due by June. If it fails to keep it, it will be expelled. Only I can decide how my freedom will come about. The General Staff gave a promise, but Apo does things for himself. You are expressing your own freedom through my freedom. No one but himself can free Öcalan.

Raperin: The Women's Movement wants both to meet with you and to stay by your side.

Chairman: That will be difficult at the start. First, three people will come.

Raperin: We can put forward names for the delegation, for the secretariat.

Chairman: We can do that later. Deepen your training.

Finally, this is a struggle, and it rests on consensus. The state does not officially recognize the Kurds. Over time, a state reality that recognizes the Kurds constitutionally must be reached. The Kurds fall outside the scope of the law. We want to bring them under the Constitution in both Syria and Turkey. How will we carry this into the Constitution? We will think in terms of law rather than war. Democratic politics will become law. Where there is law, there are no weapons. Once what we are discussing here as democratic politics becomes law, it becomes part of the legal order. The Kurdish dynamic in the Middle East has been set in motion. There are 60 million Kurds. We used to think this might happen alongside the Shia, but Iran looks set to lose. But Israel — meaning imperialism — wants to design this itself. Turkey's state mind, its security mind, should be thinking about this already. The only remedy is democratic integration. This is the conclusion we have reached.

You have neglected one task for forty years: the problem of democratic unity must be resolved. A formation like a Democratic Kurdish Union could be pursued. A union that puts democracy first, not nationalism. You can say we spoke indirectly with Öcalan, not directly. We received messages from Bafel and Nechirvan. Tell them we found them valuable. What has happened in Syria has shown that moving toward democratic unity is essential. A democratic Kurdish union along the lines of the KNK could be brought to the fore. We will bring forward the spirit of democratic unity. There should be conference preparations there with the KDP, the PUK and other organizations. Unity is needed, whether in the South or the North. There must be a collective decision, and execution. It is already a problem that you have not done this for 40 years. Unity matters as much as bread and water. A dictator could emerge in Iran, another Saddam in Iraq, a fascist in Turkey. For this reason, Democratic Unity is as necessary as bread and water. We are heading into a process in Turkey; you say things could be turned upside down. It could be something like a PLO model. Democratic Unity must be your fundamental article, your absolute necessity. This work must be carried out on that basis. I am placing this before you as a task. If there is no solution, everyone will be crushed under it. Comrade Sabri, you already have experience in this area. You will handle the diplomacy properly. Succeed however you can. Push it through via Bradost, Shengal, Mexmûr, Garê. The forces in the South must feel this. You must be allowed to carry out work in Başûr. Unity develops through this. It will not happen through rallies and demonstrations. Without democratic unity, we cannot solve this any other way. We made protocols with Talabani in '93 and with the Barzanis in the '80s. We should have achieved this long ago.

Abbas Ark: The KDP considered it for a while, then gave up on it.

Chairman: The British got involved. On this basis, convey my greetings to all the comrades in the organizational structure and to the people. Also, loving greetings to PAJK, to all of them. My love belongs to PAJK. It is collective.

Hamili offered his thanks for the stance the administration took at the congress and for embracing the Leadership's thinking. Also, before leaving, all the comrades sent their warm greetings.

Comrade Raperin said the flowers they had brought to the Leadership came on behalf of all the women comrades, and conveyed the women's greetings. The Leadership asked where they had brought the flowers from, and asked questions about the flowers. He also asked after comrades, asking about comrades Pelşin Tolhildan, Jiyan Deniz and Tekoşin Ozan. It was reported that they were well and working. The names of the comrades on the women's movement's restructuring committee were also conveyed. He recalled comrade Esma. He said she had stayed on during Şener's period, that Şener had at the time claimed to have bound all the women to himself, and he asked that this be put to comrade Esma. Comrade Abbas also joined the discussion concerning comrade Esma.

Comrade Raperin stated that there was a women's delegation and a secretariat in preparation, and that they wanted to present it. The Leadership said: are there comrades producing striking developments — not for here, but those who will be outside, I will work with them (the wording may not be exact, but this is the sense).