Minutes of Öcalan's meeting with Kandil delegation: Part 2

Rastinews — We are now publishing the second installment of the three-part meeting notes — reportedly held on 1-2 February between Abdullah Öcalan and a Kandil delegation (Helin Ümit, Duran Kalkan, Sabri Ok, among others) — the first part of which we have already published.

Dear Rastî readers and followers, we have shared with you the first part of notes — which came into our possession — from a meeting reportedly held on 1-2 February 2026 between Abdullah Öcalan, state officials and a Kandil delegation. We are now sharing the second part with you. The third and final part will follow tomorrow.

PART TWO

Abbas Ark: We — Middle Eastern politicians included — grow complacent the moment we get any opening.

Chairman: Of course. Mubarak, Saddam, Assad, Gaddafi... we all saw how they ended.

Sabri Ark: We warned Assad so many times. They knew you too. They didn't listen. They never democratized.

Chairman: I think Erdoğan was somewhat deceived by them too. In my view, the same forces now want to prepare a similar end for Mr. Erdoğan. That's all I'm saying. The Kurds, a founding element, have been denied and excluded. Let us develop and defend the Republic. Mustafa Kemal said: we founded the Republic, you will develop it. That is an instruction for those who claim to be Kemalists. We say: let us bring the Republic together with democracy. What I am doing is defending the Republic. My rebellion is not against the Republic, nor against its virtue. This Kurd held the same values as you at the founding of your Republic. I am not one of those politicians. Labor creates the human being and makes him a socialist. I want my labor to count. I have a love of labor. You cannot discredit me. The state will understand this too. This applies to the PKK as well. You cannot go on living like this for 40 years under my leadership. You — Abbas Ark — know this better than anyone. You know me well. You know my way of working. You are a man of labor. It's clear you haven't succeeded. I make these criticisms because I respect you.

Abbas Ark: That's true, Chairman.

Chairman: Whether we live or die, it should be worth something to us. I have no intention of putting you in a difficult position. I criticize because I value you. If I didn't, that would be worse.

Abbas Ark: We are aware of that. The alternative is worse. The absence of criticism — praise, even — is more dangerous.

Chairman: It would certainly be bad and dangerous. You are more devoted and harder-working than I am. But I do criticize. Now there are some — Kemalists, media charlatans — who declare us enemies of the state. Degeneracy and immorality are rife. These people are frauds. In Turkey, the courageous one is Bahçeli. He reminds the DEM Party of me too, telling them to take the founding Leader as their reference. In any case, whether you see me as a rival or as Leader, we have come this far. I have done a great deal of work. Neither you nor the state can claim that I have not worked. But from now on, I cannot lead you in this way. If this path is wrong, you will find another.

Sabri Ark: What are we to understand from what you're saying, Chairman? That either the state treats our Leadership as its interlocutor and resolves the issue, or we as a movement go our own way? Is that how we should understand it?

Chairman: Either a solution will develop, or an all-out move against you will begin. Within three months, the state will fight with everything it has — worse than in 2015. In three months, it is either a meaningful settlement or all-out war. You must find a solution within three months.

Abbas Ark: We see this. There are many circles that want exactly that. They are lying in wait.

Chairman: Naturally. Politics says: let the conflict start as soon as possible, let this process end and the commotion begin. Özal tried; at first he dismissed them as a handful of bandits. Erbakan, Ecevit and others made the wrong diagnosis. No solution developed. This time the situation is different. This process does not resemble the ones before it. When comrade Sabri first came, he said we have solid relations. That may be; you can develop relations, including a relationship with the state. But it will have consequences. They are pushing Barzani to the fore. The way is being opened for a Kurdish nation-state. That is why Barzani is in the foreground. The same was done to the Turks. If we weaken even slightly, Israel, France and the British will open the way completely. Disarmament proceeds step by step, while Turkey leads the drive to annihilate with all its strength. Ten more years, then ten more years. Until when? There will be talk of Kurdish heroism. The other side will speak of a Turkish resurgence. It will be Turkey and the Kurds who lose. That is what happened to the Ottomans too. What have we gained from this kind of politics? It always makes everyone lose. This empty wheel spinning round does not amount to movement. Let us stop going round and round like a mill-horse, always arriving at the same place. It reminds me of a child saying to Demirel: you've been getting on and off like a rodeo horse for 40 years, haven't you had enough? We must find a remedy.

Abbas Ark: Saudi Arabia reportedly spent 4 billion dollars on the recent clashes and on al-Sharaa's attacks. We agree with your assessment. Kurdish society is mobilized. There is another uprising underway in Iran. But all the other Kurds are mobilized around the clock over Rojava. If it isn't guided properly, it could move into another phase. And of course, Barzanism is on the rise.

Chairman: That too is part of the plan. The goal is a Turkish-Kurdish war. That is the logic behind it. The killing of thousands of Kurds in Hasakah is horrifying. Even if they were to establish a state, at most it would be an emirate, with a Barzani at its head. That is why I prefer a Democratic Republic. I see no solution beyond that. That is the only way a democratic system can work. In truth, they are attacking my thesis of the Republic.

Helin: Chairman, through the figure of Barzani, these attacks are weakening the democratic-nation solution. Nation-statism is being promoted. That is why Barzani is being pushed to the fore.

Chairman: Turkey will not allow a nation-state approach for the Kurds. It has collaborators, but it will not allow it. This, in fact, is how this century is being turned into a century of war. Social sensitivities are being touched. The Barzanis are ruthless — you know how they fought against us.

Helin: Yes. Your solution project with its democratic perspective is being targeted. They want to turn this solution into a subject of dispute.

Chairman: Perhaps that is precisely why things have been brought to this deadlock. If there is a political coordinator, I will give you a more detailed report on these matters. If Barzani's leadership takes hold, the arrow will have left the bow. The British have been promising this to the Barzanis since 1880. An official once said the style of governance in Başûr is the British style. They work only for themselves. It is a system of plunder, pure and simple.

Official: It's the same in Venezuela.

Abbas Ark: Yes, it's the same in Venezuela.

Chairman: This is gunboat-style plunder. Venezuela-style. That is why they put me under special surveillance, just like Lenin. They did the same to Lenin. They declared me persona non grata, made it so I couldn't set foot on an inch of soil. CONTINUE READING They tried British formulas like "PKK without Apo" and "Apo without the PKK." I broke up that game. The British anger at the Kurds is historic. As you know, Major Noel wanted to incite the Kurds to rise up against the Republic, but he did not succeed. Lawrence, for his part, wanted to incite and provoke the Arabs against the Turks. Noel failed, and over this the British remain angry and have never forgiven the Kurds.

We need to find a way out now. However we do it, let us plan for these three months. You will discuss it, but this three-month threshold must be crossed. War or peace? We must decide on this now. (Turning to the officials) I ask that politics now make the decision. I have respect for Mr. İ. But even if I wanted to, I am in no position to provide leadership under these conditions. The political space is narrowing. The process cannot last more than three months. A historic threshold must be crossed within three months. That war faction is dangerous, and they have prepared an enormous plan against you. I know that group well. I met with them here quite a bit in the past. We held talks for seven years on İmralı. But who we are dealing with now is different.

You have seen this building. It is very valuable. But I cannot breathe. The status of the building matters. It is neither prison nor house... It is neither fish nor fowl... In this situation, I will not go to this building. This cannot be done without considering the political and legal dimension. A state does not do things this way. The legal dimension matters. Spiritually, I cannot live with this status. I may seem enthusiastic because I am doing good work. But you cannot just tell me to stay as I am while others handle the rest. That is the state of politics. But I will not say "amen" to a prayer that can never be answered.

Abbas Ark: We too have something to say on this. A year has passed. There has been no progress. There has even been regression. We discussed a second Sèvres. The situation is heading in that direction.

Chairman: Yes, it is heading toward a second Sèvres. That is where things are going. Like the situation in the Balkans. Politicians used to say they would not meet with the "head terrorist." Bahçeli, in the end, courageously said he would go. It is hard to believe. My greatest rival says this. Yet those who pass themselves off as the opposition did not come.

Abbas Ark: Rent-seeking circles provoked and influenced them too. Certain circles pulled them back.

Chairman: There are 60 million Kurds. Israel is on the hunt. It wants effective diplomacy. They want to use the Kurdish stick against Iran and Iraq. In the Middle East they've used it as a stick against certain powers. They said we built Israel by striking, we hold oil by striking. They said, why are you taking this stick out of our hands. Now I say, explain this to the officials a little. I say let Turkey lead this solution. A Kurdish state was founded in the Seljuk era, and its capital was Hamadan. Half were Turkmen. The Seljuks represent Kurds more than they represent Turks. When Alp Arslan came to Manzikert, his whole family was in Hamadan. He fights like a typical Kurdish emir. We need to understand well how the British brought down the Ottomans. The current collapse has been modeled on the Kurds. They took down Saddam the same way. The diagnosis needs to be made precisely here. I read Suleiman the Magnificent's letter. His mother says, 'My son, you built this empire, but how will you protect it against the Georgians and Persians in the east?' Suleiman answers: I built a Kurdish fortress made of living bodies, no one can breach it and threaten us. These politicians can't see this now. Abdulhamid neutralized the Armenians with the Hamidiye Regiments. Now look at the relations being entered into. We said brotherhood, why isn't it developing. Why this hesitation, this reluctance.

I will make this much effort. I rebelled against you, but I was right, because you denied the Kurd. Now I say solution. Politics doesn't understand this. I told Mr. İ. that they keep putting Sharaa forward as Arab, Arab. Well, didn't the Arabs bring about the end of your empire? What is the Kurds' sin? Didn't the Kurds practice brotherhood with you? What kind of approach is this. If you insist too much, I'll say you took bribes from Qatar. If the Saudis gave that much money, perhaps others are giving too. They always show a negative approach toward the Kurds. This must end.

Abbas Ark: This language never changes. At first it seemed like they were making a change. But the profiteers stepped in and they keep insulting us. This is how it was in the Erbakan and Özal periods too.

Chairman: You are only here to show the dangers and the positive situation. Özal did it, they took him down. They removed Erbakan from the premiership.

Sabri Ok: You are focusing this much. We made this much of a decision. We held a congress. But if the approach toward you doesn't change, what can we do. If the media language of insult and hostility continues, how can we move to a positive phase within 3 months. The state is negative as far as Kurds are concerned.

Chairman: I wanted to prevent this. I want to turn it positive. The orientation toward you will be at a level that leaves 2015 behind. Now the liberals have come out saying, what agreement is this, these should be cut off, why was an agreement signed with the SDF. They hate the Kurd this much. They say HTS must be destroyed to the end. So what if there's a Kurdish village. If they take hold there, what harm does it do you. Anyway, these are your guarantee. Arabs can't be trusted in the long run. You're mistaken, they'll become trouble for you. As in the First World War, the Arabs are not friends. You can't manage the right politics the way I can. You approached the relationship I developed here with the state with suspicion. You even said this could be a special-war game. Could it be? I said it could be. But its nature and content are not that.

Helin: What forces us, Chairman, is your situation. We have no suspicion or concern about you. But your situation and conditions are forcing. There is no one in our leadership or in our structure who doesn't take into account what you say.

Chairman: I don't mind. Let me be the last one who should be free. But if they even learn of this house and this place, they'll raise hell. They'll eliminate all of you. They'll accuse the officials of treason too.

Helin: You are making an effort. But if there is a norm state — and if we are here, there is — it needs to make some effort too. There must be an effort toward change.

Chairman: They are making an effort, but it's not enough. The political establishment is a disaster. Two people came here. One a professor. Hüseyin Yayman was timid, as if İmralı weren't Turkish soil. We had a dialogue with Fethi Yıldız. Yayman had a very pitiful bearing. You can imagine the others.

Helin: Yes, he was scared stiff. The relationship between the Leadership and the movement is important for this process. We have been waiting seven months to come here. We needed to discuss and to meet. We are making a strategic change; for the good of how things are going, you should not be in this position.

Chairman: I have been turned into the problem. This is a dangerous approach. I am the one who took the step, I am the one who made the contribution. But they say it can't be done with Öcalan. As if I were the obstacle. In that case either they must kill me, or I must kill myself. Then find someone else, let them solve it. They say Salahaddin. What can poor Salahaddin do.

Sabri Ok: He himself says, while the Leadership is here, I can't do anything.

Chairman: Let's make Barzani king, let him solve it. There's a great impasse. They're calculating who will steal the Kurdish votes. They're making calculations over the election. They're playing this game with Barzani too. The officials are working, but their power is limited. The power of the others, that is, the opponents, is greater. They saw an opportunity in Aleppo and immediately showed themselves. If these hadn't thrown their weight in, they would have done everything recklessly. Still, one must show the state respect in this sense. The bronze law of the coup mechanic is in play. There is a bronze law. Mr. Erdoğan's power is limited. They insist we must kill the Kurds. Well, if you kill them, what do you gain. This force is very well planned. The officials should also know that I have seen coup attempts against Özal and Erdoğan. These can be right beside you. They can even be your closest friends. You won't even notice until they grab you by the collar. I am not pessimistic. Let's work with these officials. But I may not give a hundred percent guarantee. Their authority is limited. Even bringing you here was an extraordinary operation.

Abbas Ark: We are aware of this.

Chairman: We have always spoken, let the officials speak too.

Official: We made you wait seven months. Abdullah Bey said empty the caves, nothing happened. We talked a lot with Sabri Bey, some things happened but there were also things that didn't. They put the Syria issue before parliament. We have been striving from the start. The parliamentary commission has been debating for days. Cengiz, Ms. Gülistan and others are on the commission. We went and briefed them. The greatest success of this process is that not a single young person died. Neither soldiers nor your comrades. This is success. We are making an effort; it wouldn't be right to say everything will be fine tomorrow.

Sabri Ok: You need to organize public opinion in this direction. The language of the media is still problematic.

Official: Yes it's problematic, but your media too reports things like HTS, ISIS and TURKEY are attacking together. Ronahi, Medya, Sterk TV are like that. Since you are an organization, your discipline is easy. But it's hard for the state to permeate everywhere.

Sabri Ok: We go out and explain. But when we watch the press, we see a terrible policy is being pursued.

Official: Mr. İ. briefed the parliamentary commission. He explained nicely in the commission that you are vacating certain locations, withdrawing from Turkey, and your attempt to burn weapons. Let there be a good atmosphere, let's not turn it negative. Let's not say if it goes like this, it won't work like that. I too am from Kastamonu, but before Turkishness, Alevism and Kurdishness, let's be human. I understand something different from what you just said. Are you saying if nothing happens within 3 months, use weapons? How should we understand this.

Sabri Ok: Now our Leadership can't breathe on this island. Shouldn't we ask this? Even Napoleon used to walk around the island with his own horse.

Chairman: I am speaking of a political deadlock. There is a serious situation. A political coordinator could open the way. Political parties could reach a consensus.

Official: The Pervin ladies are calling Numan about the trucks. Mr. T. must be aware too. Since aid is going to be sent, one must get used to cooperation. We say send it through the Red Crescent, deliver it. They insist it must enter through Suruç. If the aim is aid, can there be something this absurd and sadistic?

Helin: The Middle East is very tangled. Developments could have happened in Aleppo even without the attacks.

Official: This came knowingly. The head of the organization told the delegation dozens of times, and we told you too, let the March 10 agreement be implemented. But not a single step was taken.

Chairman: What you're describing forces a need for new planning and a new mechanism. This is necessary. I have to play a role on this. I need to work on this a bit these days. If I don't play this role, the problem won't be solved. If the new format comes into effect in a month or two, we'll get ahead of it. I'll play a political role when it's needed. Friends around Sabri tried before. They sent me a document through Mr. Emre. They wanted a signature, I signed it. But the button was buttoned wrong, so it couldn't be resolved. Duran has the most theoretical strength, doesn't he, but strength alone isn't enough. The Dem delegation doesn't have the strength to breathe. You see Mazlum Abdi's strength. They can't do it. The politicians should tell me to act. Let political will assign me a role. They must clear my path. We're not asking for concessions either. I'd say there's no need for a home, and let's not interfere with the constitution's principles either. Where will you place the social subject? First: designate a political coordinator. Second: let political leaders sit down and decide. They can also visit one by one. There's no time left for this, their strength is limited. Conditions must be created for what I can do. I'm tired of your questions about what my freedom will look like, what my home conditions will be. Playing my political role matters to me. If this develops, conditions become meaningless anyway, and possibility opens up.

Abbas Ark: That's what we say too. That's the congress decision too. There's no one but you to do this.

Official: Mazlum keeps saying to ask this. He can't decide. They mean Kandil.

Chairman: When I first arrived here, a chief-of-staff official said both your death and your life and your freedom depend on you. I think that's a wise thing to say. I'm the one who will settle this. The delegation is coming for that too. No one but me can do this. Besides, there's no force or method that will secure my freedom. Only I can secure it. I tell officials this too, not as a threat, but I have my own strategies. Leadership can't be done any other way. You can't be freed until I'm freed. You're aware of this. This is partly your right, but it's also partly peasant cunning. I have a strategy for my own freedom.

Delegation: Leadership asked at one point about Iran's situation. As for how things stand in Iran, our friends said the public has great sympathy, that Iran's initial approach was negative but it's now taking a more positive approach. Leadership said there should be a democratic federalism suited to Iran's conditions. He said a solution could be imposed there according to Iran's conditions, just as we did with Turkey — that a Kurdistan province already exists and could be expanded, democratized and updated. Leadership said Maliki's arrival could have consequences. Officials said they'd given up on it, and that's how the dialogue went.)

Chairman: We carried out a main framework discussion. Let's draw up a framework by evening. There are documents, you'll read them until morning. I read the congress documents and letters, quite mature and developed. Beyond what I expected. If officials find it fitting too, the fact that this Kurdish issue was built up through Barzani is, to my mind, void. It depends on your solution project and planning. What kind of Kurd, what kind of Kurdistan will there be. I mentioned the Seljuks. Now a small state has emerged in southern Kurdistan. The issue now is how this can be linked with compatibility and integration with Turkey — that's what matters. The agreement and gains in Syria are not just for the Kurds; they are at least as much gains for Turkey. They call it a corridor, that's a great indecency. Not just for the economy of imperialism. It holds for peoples too. They can meet all their needs through Turkey. There are also other things, social and cultural ties that can give Turkey an advantage. There is a deep cultural and historical bond. No solution can be found by turning it into a rigid nation-state border. Imperialism sees this as the solution. I'm proposing a democratic approach. I'm proposing economic, political and cultural democratization. We're proposing an excellent regime. I have no problem with borders. While Azerbaijan and Cyprus provide a contribution to Turkey, what we're offering as a corridor gives a thousand times that. Because of their cross-eyed view, they don't calculate this. They think this way: what if these people, given the chance, resort to weapons and war? They're spreading anxiety and uproar. These people are fools. In fact I call my own project the project of reorganizing Kurdish-Turkish relations. Ethnicity, sectarian and other divisions have become meaningless. Their era has ended. The Republic tried to homogenize and failed. Great states don't even make an issue of cultural differences. They don't even make different cultures a problem. There's the Scotland example. The Kurds' difference is not a source of threat for Turkey. A people who see the state as their own state, under a law of brotherhood, does not revolt. History imposes this on us, commands it. A cross-eyed view makes you lose. This formula is not surrender for the Kurds. The narrative of "they fought to the end, they won to the end" is a strategy of losing. It's not a revolutionary strategy. Develop as much war and conflict as you want, say you took the Taurus mountains, Anatolia, Central Anatolia. So what. It becomes a Pyrrhic victory. An approach that always loses isn't viable. We're not abandoning it because we're weak, not because we're helpless, but because it's wrong. Didn't the state make mistakes too? It did, it made great mistakes. Turning back from a mistake is a gain. Let's not turn this into a matter of superiority. Besides, the Turkish state has shaped itself as a nation-state. We have little left to say about that. Now they say in the constitution this is unchangeable, and so on. That's not my method. My own method is the Democratic Society. This will need to be defined. We need to discuss how it will be included in the Republic. We keep saying let this article or that article change. That's not the right method. The nation-state is a dead end. You can't counter a nation-state with a nation-state. The socialists' goal cannot be to found a state. That's why we dissolved the PKK. Instead we said democratic society socialism. To my mind it's possible. To my mind it's socialism itself. This project requires a democratic republic facing it. It requires a democratic state facing it. I said democratic nation, it wasn't understood, that's why I say democratic society. It will secure its own organization. It's in the declaration. We can read it article by article in the February 27 declaration too. The matter of the commune, and so on, isn't done with weapons. Just as a capitalist is free to protect his own company as he wishes, a socialist has just as much right to protect his own commune. I'll say commune, not company. It could be a cooperative or something else. I'm talking about an economy not for profit but for the public good, for the benefit of society. It has its politics too, its culture too. For instance, there could be a commune of this or that culture. İbrahim Tatlıses built a cultural, musical empire, and calls himself an emperor anyway. Can there be an emperor in art? There's culture, sports, health now too, but it can't work freely. A free ground must be created for this. That's why a political coordinator is necessary. How the laws for this democratization will look, that gets discussed. Davutoğlu, Arınç, Professor Mithat... someone from the CHP could come too. Arınç says he'll go himself. Davutoğlu proposed it himself. Let's discuss it properly, like decent people, and we'll work out how to do it. Now I need to explain that this Republic is the Kurds' state too. I can do this. Only I can explain it to the friends.

Official: Arınç went to Selahattin Demirtaş and, once there, said things he'd never said and stirred things up. Davutoğlu talks and says things you never said. He's a narcissist, one thing becomes a thousand, even you'd be surprised. Politicians make things complicated. There could be people like Sarp Kuray, but he's lost his health. He could have come otherwise.

Chairman: Sometimes you need to give your rivals a chance. Yes, it would have been very good, Sarp Kuray. I'd like to meet with Sarp and Beşikçi. Let the friends convey my greetings on this.

Official: Beşikçi can't come, but Sarp might come. Ms. Leyla isn't doing too well either.

D: Leyla Zana? She doesn't have any problem.

Official: I meant it in the sense that she's aged.

official: Also there were Turkish left-wing movements and organizations, Mr. Abdullah... After the dissolution there's the HBDH, we need to discuss their situation too.

Chairman: Duran is the one who knows this best. Would they come around to our solution? Were you able to discuss it?

Abbas Ark: Some can be convinced, but we need to hold discussions with others. We haven't fully discussed it.

Chairman: The Democratic Republic is a socialist solution. There's the example of the French socialists. Their slogan is Democratic Republic. There's no socialism without democratic society. Socialism isn't at the point of a gun. It may be painful that the weapon's time has expired. The weapon is a tool of politics. If democratic politics is in place, there can be no weapon. That would be wrong. In fact let me put it this way: socialism doesn't come out of the barrel of a gun, only capitalism does. This violence doesn't exist in Marx either, or in Lenin.

Abbas Ark: Yes, capitalism and the state come out of it.

Chairman: These people need to be talked to. We started this, and we are voluntarily laying down our arms. You need to explain our situation well. You know I have my own style. No being can sustain its existence without securing its safety. They misunderstand legitimate defense and distort it. Existence has three qualities. Reproduction, nourishment and security… For security, in my view, this bond exists even in the energy-matter relationship. Look at the snake — one defends itself with its thorns, another with its venom. For human communities too, defense is politics; there is morality and there is law. Where there is no law, where there is no politics, weapons come into play. Say a power arrives that recognizes no law, engages in no political debate, and resorts to weapons to try to destroy you — then weapons come into play, and that is legitimate defense. This is what I had Sırrı, the immortal Sırrı, write down. He was an intelligent and wise comrade. I had him write a sentence to the effect that laying down arms rests on a legal and political foundation. He wrote it in his own hand. Let me also explain how the constitution could look; the sensitive articles in the constitution can stay as they are. But should it be an additional article, or should it run through the whole text... Let's not touch the first four articles, but in the end there is an existence here, and you need to express this in the constitution. Either you spread it through the whole text, or you add an extra article. The definition of citizenship is a definition of membership in the state. The law of being a member of the republic and the state is the definition of citizenship. The principle will be this: just as a person can say 'this is my religion,' they must be able to freely express their own nationality and national identity. So if Helin says 'I am Kurdish,' does that make her a sinner? No one should be told by legal compulsion, 'you are Kurdish' or 'you are Turkish.' The citizen will have the right to freely express their religion, identity and socio-economic condition. Leave it free, let the citizen do the rest themselves. Turkishness can't be forced anyway. Can I force a Kurd from Hakkâri to become Turkish? It doesn't work that way. For years there has been noise and empty debate over this. These definitions will shape the free republic and the democratic republic to the fullest. Instead of raising an uproar and calling it separatism, they need to know this is the only remedy. I will propose this to Syria too. We are not debating the unitary nature of the state. I will propose it to Şahin too. This truly applies to Iran and Syria as well, in the Middle East. If the definition of citizenship is corrected this way, the problems will end.

Official: DBP and Hüda Par have their charters. Hüda Par defends Kurdistan. But they aren't arrested. As long as there are no weapons. Weapons are the problem. Prophets spread themselves not by using weapons but by conquering hearts.

Chairman: Before, even saying 'Kurd' was a crime.

Official: That was in the past. Many things have been fixed.

Abbas Ark: There's a problem in the definition of Article 66. It says everyone bound to the Republic of Turkey by the tie of citizenship is a Turk. So if someone isn't a citizen, are they not a Turk? Didn't Turkishness exist before that?

Official: Well, look, Turks have their own problems too.

Chairman: Socialism cannot be built by relying on state power. Defending socialism by relying on the state turns it into China. In China there is fascism and slavery under the name of communism. It works people through a system of slavery. It has pyramids built like the pharaohs and calls it socialism. Socialism cannot be forced. Capitalism has poisoned everything. If it's explained properly, everyone will know the danger. Capitalism is highly toxic. Socialism cannot be forced. It builds its own system against capitalism. And capitalism itself says, 'don't force us to become socialist.'

To be a good socialist you must make the fight against the enslavement of women your principle. The remedy is the free citizen. How can you be equal with a woman you leave enslaved? Every day, killing, oppression… Woman must liberate herself. I repeat this because I am sensitive on this issue — he says 'I'm forcibly in love,' and plunges his dagger in. The killing of a woman is a horrific thing. The way to remedy this passes through democracy and freedom. Is the killing of a woman normal? They go back and forth between punishment and death. You saw the Narin case. The Güran family — they descend from Molla Gurani — look what state the mother, the son and the uncle fell into. In Diyarbakır, society has gone off the rails. Insisting on socialism is insisting on being human. How difficult personality transformations are.

Using weapons is a sin. The smallest democratic right and opportunity is worth a thousand weapons. You need to create the means and opportunities for taking the PKK out of being an instrument of violence. A political coordinator could be found in Turkey. There are intelligent people. There are even soldiers. Even those who fought us want peace. If you are eager for a solution, it should be because you need it, not because you are weak. I need to announce this to society. You need to create the means and opportunities for this.

Official: Actions are being carried out. Molotov cocktails are thrown every night. The Syria issue is used as a pretext. An IED was thrown in Diyarbakır. Now how can parliament pass legislation in the face of this? These situations will force matters.

Sabri Ark: Would a state trying to solve such a deep-rooted problem be thinking about things like this? Show a little empathy.

Official: I am showing empathy on this right now. I can't find a reason why Molotov cocktails are being thrown at the police. I'm saying this for parliament's sake. Please don't forget Müsavat and Ümit Özdağ either.

Chairman: We need to give these things shape. There are mutually provocative sides. You will give me the responsibility. Otherwise the drum is around my neck while the mallet is in someone else's hand. It doesn't work this way.

Abbas Ark: It's not easy to change a cadre shaped by war and weapons. They say they've changed, but their way of working reverts to the old pattern right away.

Chairman: This is exactly why I speak of rehabilitation. Sometimes I say these comrades shouldn't mix into society right away, and we should undergo a year of internal concentration. We need to take this in hand. I say this for the thirty-year veterans too. They shouldn't go straight out into society.

Abbas Ark: We can never do this alone. Our strength isn't enough. Only the Leadership can do this.

Official: They say they will form a commune of three people.

Chairman: It's certain they want to draw inspiration from me. I need to be the one doing these things. Their strength isn't enough. Even if they wanted to, they couldn't. Look, in Syria, if there weren't someone loyal to me like Şahin, things would go very badly. It's good that he's loyal to me and he's there. My intervention will be vital. Talk to Mr. İ again — this data also confirms why I need to do this organizing. The way is open for Talabani and Barzani. I opened up an immense Kurdish space for them. We need to gather them around the Republic of Turkey through a democratic bond as soon as possible. Other powers have caught the scent and moved in. They too are watching for the opportunity. They need to come together.

Official: Are Barzani and Talabani Kurds? We can't even bring the Turkic republics together. They didn't unite even against Saddam's tyranny — how are we going to unite them?

Chairman: This is exactly why I speak of democratizing the Republic. There will be citizens of the democratic republic. The definition of citizenship is tied to free citizenship. The first book Mustafa Kemal wrote was Citizen's Consciousness. He didn't write this for nothing. They created monstrosities. My rebellion is against these monstrosities.

Official: During the February 28th process I had no personal grievance, but they said sharia was coming and set up 'persuasion rooms' for headscarved women. But look, that's not how it turned out. The headscarf was banned in Turkey, but now there are headscarved ministers. We have colleagues who wear it. Ten years from now we may not even be discussing what we're discussing here. But our children will see it. When I explain the definition of race to my child, they can't understand — they ask what the difference is. This is the kind of world we're heading toward. This is actually how it needs to be fixed.

Chairman: In the Middle East, a horrific massacre is underway because of sects. The Democratic Republic draws the broadest framework for this. It is enough for everyone. Socialists favor small statelets. They see the solution in everyone founding their own state. There is no such principle. Stalin had four solutions. We took one of them and set it as an absolute principle. This is the democratic nation. First, it does not forcibly nationalize anyone. Second, it does not touch borders. Third, it will choose its own socio-economic system on its own. We said if we can't found a state, we can't be socialist. That was our mistake. Founding a state requires war, and for that you have to do terrible things.

Abbas Ark: Chairman, our mindset on that matter has changed to a great extent.

Chairman: The other becomes pharaoh socialism. China and the others cannot stand. Population policies, climate, ecology are a serious problem. Nothing has been left untouched, above ground or below. They're turning the world into a garbage dump. Profit-driven exploitation will leave no life for future generations. The world is being turned into a garbage dump. Space is being turned into a satellite junkyard. Look at that fancy bottled water you see. The plastic costs twice as much as the water. But that's how they profit. Soon they'll probably attach a tube to each of us — those who don't draw air through that tube won't be able to live. A tube attached to each of us. This is why socialism is necessary. Helin is a complete Turkish socialist woman, from head to toe. She's held out like this for 25 years.

Helin: Thanks to you, Chairman.

Chairman: No, I definitely couldn't endure the life you've lived. Nor could I endure it the way Comrade Duran has.

Helin: We lived by drawing strength from you, Chairman.

Chairman: You should have some pity for yourself, Duran. Socialists are not narrow and dogmatic. There's a problem in how socialism is implemented.

Official: Where are the socialists? Where are the most ideal ones in the world? I'm curious.

Chairman: Now do you think socialism is worthless, is that it?

Official: No, I'm just curious.

Helin: If you mean in Turkey, we exist. We claim to represent socialism.

Chairman: There's a nuclear buildup from Russia to other countries. If these explode and spread, millions will die even in Turkey. That's why I say socialism is necessary. We know where the world is heading. You won't be asked, when humanity's end comes, where the socialists were. I see the democratic option as the Republic's indispensable requirement. We'll bring the socialist vein to Turkey. I choose it consciously. Nothing is as valuable as a free woman, but I admit I'm running from you.

Helin: Chairman, even when you were with us, you used to argue with us too.

Chairman: You see the horror, don't you? How will you live every day with a man's beating? Once a man dominates, you can't survive 24 hours. There's a terrible disrespect toward women. There used to be respect. As capitalism developed, even that disappeared. I wrote the book Killing the Man in '95. Now I'm thinking of writing Killing the Prostitute too. The woman who has been brought down and weakened must also be written about. I'm focused on it, and my only concern is how you are living.

Helin: A women's communalist breakthrough is very necessary in Turkey. There's terrible sexism in Turkey.

Official: I have a suggestion. Let the Demli friends submit a motion. It will turn out that women kill men more.

Helin: Such things have been written. But it's not true. We shouldn't argue like that.

Chairman: There's the matter of sacred marriage, you know. I'll explain it through the Epic of Gilgamesh. First he marries the Goddess and settles in the temple. But then the goddess kills him. Enki says, I will take your values from you, for the 104 Me. In the Inanna cult, the fact that the man who performs the sacred marriage is sacrificed the next day shows that the woman made no concession on her freedom. It wasn't given up easily. In the Enuma Elish epic, the woman is now cut into 40 pieces. The Sumerians are an interesting society. By the time it reaches Babylonian society, the woman is finished. But in Uruk, the woman still holds power. She resists the laws of Hammurabi. In her particular and general condition, the woman still lives in that defeat today. When the man seizes dominance, he turns the temple into a brothel. What was it called? Musakadim. This state of degradation has carried you to today.

Helin: When Gilgamesh is chasing Inanna, there are insults toward her. At first I didn't understand. Why is he insulting the goddess.

Chairman: That's the power struggle. This culture forms over 30 thousand years. In the hunters' lodge, the male hunter seizes weapon superiority. He carries out a terrible attack with the obsidian weapon. Once the hunting male seizes weapon superiority, he turns the woman fully into property. From that point on, the woman loses. The hunting male raids with weapon superiority. The US also has weapon superiority. Like Trump. You see exactly how a man, how a guy, talks. He says power is mine. The Epstein documents keep coming. That state of affairs has continued since that era. At Göbekli Tepe, the woman is turned fully into property.

Helin: After that a Neolithic revolution takes place.

Chairman: That's a wrong interpretation. It's connected to Neolithic enslavement. It's the representation of the dominant male.

Helin: Symbols are very widespread at Göbekli Tepe. In this period there are also goddess figures.

Chairman: The revolution doesn't move at the same pace everywhere. The dominant priest culture is widespread from Göbekli Tepe to Thrace. The maternal and goddess culture was an era. It created language and culture. It created the naming of plants. The Neolithic explosion begins with the enslavement of women. Behind femicide lies this: woman is approached through the notion of honor. Even now in Urfa, a woman must belong to a man. Whatever I do, I do it, because the woman is mine. I have the right to kill. That's a woman forced into submission. This is not genetic or physical, it is a culture.

Abbas Ark: Is there an uninterrupted period of struggle in the Neolithic Age?

Chairman: Now look, in Urfa, stones weighing how many tons were erected. A huge number of slaves were needed to build them. Those places can't be built without slaves. Even this makes the matter understandable. What we call masculinity is cultural. There's Simone de Beauvoir's saying, you know. "One is not born a woman, one becomes one." I too say, "One is not born a socialist, one becomes a socialist." You don't become free just by saying we became a free woman. How will the female sex be liberated. There's a makeup culture in Turkey.

Helin: My observation about men is this. They're like overinflated balloons.

Chairman: Balloon personality, that's it. Was it friend Abbas who said if you pop the balloon, nothing will be left of us? That's what he'd said.

Chairman: A woman cannot live without ethics. Morality emerges through principle. The first words were invented by women. It's connected to protecting the child. Woman necessarily lays the foundation of humanity. She develops a mindset. The armed man emerges. Like Trump, his horn blares, he kills animals and people with obsidian. They formed a monopoly. The hunting male strikes the woman. The uncle's children are rendered ineffective. An absolute monopoly is established. The caste killer says we created everything. Look at the Sumerians, look at the Pyramids. Kings are also gods at the same time. When the king's tomb is excavated, hundreds of people are found buried alive with him. With his chariot and belongings. Likewise in India, when the husband dies, the wife is burned alive with her husband's corpse. It's the Sati culture. The woman has been persuaded of this. With every dying man, his household is buried alive. How deep the enslavement is for the woman brought to this state, this shows it.

Without dwelling on it further, I want to say this: I worked a great deal with women. Helin remembers. I carried out work for a long time. I worked with young women. For me it's a source of courage. They said I'd formed a harem, about me. While we're at it, friend Duran, bad things were written about you in the Turkish press. Süleyman Soylu made harsh assessments. I wanted to remind you. One must be careful. He was saying you had a harem too.

Helin: Chairman, a lot of assessments were made about your women's work. They really tried to make manipulations.

Chairman: That's exactly why one must be careful. If one isn't careful, a different kind of approach develops. But I'm resolute on that matter. That work is only possible by developing the necessary culture. An ethical rule must be established. A man must not obtain a woman through coercive force. Actually, the very concept of "obtaining" is a problematic concept. Only a commodity can be obtained. I called her queen of commodities, but a woman can be queen of both society and commodities. One must not be two-faced. I'm not saying one can't fall in love. I don't want to be misunderstood. They divide up property and money. So what will you do about the woman. The woman's situation is plain to see. How can it be otherwise without liberating the woman? Convey my greetings on this basis.

Helin: On the evening of October 9th, I was among those who saw you off. You told me you'd call for me. There was friend Jinda Mardin. She's still around. The historian girl.

Chairman: So this search still continues. There is a free woman's will that surpasses feminism. Develop yourselves with your own will. The old communal society needs to be renewed. You need to develop your Mother Goddess culture. The scaling-up of wars is connected to the enslavement of women. The way to eliminate violence depends on this. What's ethical is this: a woman cannot be obtained through coercive force. But a woman must also understand her own worth. I said queen of commodities, the opposite can also be true. She can be queen, goddess of people too. That is, not god but goddess. Not king but queen.

Helin: There is research on the basis of jineology.

Chairman: I'm not saying woman is not to be loved. I'm talking about the concretization of a principle. One lives rightly with woman — everyone thinks I'm crazy, but I'm glad I did it this way. We say the woman's basic source of life is Jin jiyan azadî. Convey my greetings on this basis…

Chairman: I've been patient for 27 years. That's why I assess things harshly, of course. But I agree.

official: If the process comes together, we'll focus on positive revolutionism.

Chairman: Positive revolution requires being constructive as much as destructive. An alternative must be put forward. Otherwise it means falling behind even anarchism. When Turkish leftism is mentioned, destruction comes to mind.

Chairman: Let the friends rest. Let them wash their faces. Ask a few questions. I've spoken one-sidedly, now you can enrich it with questions. Also, this is a second conference at İmralı. We had held one for the manifesto too. We're holding this small conference as preparation too. This is a mini-conference that will contribute to the restructuring. You'll present your thoughts.

Chairman: Do friends D and T have anything very brief to convey about Syria?

D: We held a meeting in Qamishlo. It went well. An agreement was signed. It was covered in the press too. We'd like to present the report afterward.

T: Briefly it can be said: it went well. Before coming to the meeting, both sides had already met with Damascus. The signed agreement was in line with the framework you set out. Qamishlo airport and the Nusaybin gate will be opened. There will be returns to Afrin and Serêkaniyê. Turkey's security concerns came to the fore. Concerns were expressed particularly about the Amanos region. But the agreement was close to your framework.

Chairman: There are some basic principles when they arrive. Two basic principles matter. I had proposed articles to serve as the basis for drafting the constitution.

T: The delegation that came on behalf of Turkey put forward an idea regarding your proposals: that the SDF should have a seat on the constitution drafting committee.

Chairman: Of course this matters. Half of the oil workers should be from the center, half from the locals. They'll merge. The central authority will share power with the local authority. It should be fifty-fifty. That way the co-chairmanship issue would also be offset to some extent. The center would hold sway over the local, and the local would assert its presence. Each would check the other. Europe has partly moved past this. The right approach is for the local to balance the center's power. This share should be more than fifty percent.

Abbas Ark: The withdrawal of non-Rojava cadres present in Syria has come up. But in our view it shouldn't be a case of everyone simply leaving. There are the sick, the elderly and veterans. How are we going to take them out of there and bring them to the mountains? They need to be looked after.

Chairman: That's not how it works anyway. Those in the command ranks will come to you there. The others should stay.

We started working at this pace with comrade Hayri. There has been no deviation from this pace, however small, to this day. This table was set up as the result of 27 years of patience. We took down the gallows and set up this table. We achieved this for the first time. We stopped the executions in '84. We've now set up the table. This is half the job. At the root of Kurdish history there were always gallows.

The meaning of history today becomes clearer with each passing day. Its worth must be recognized. This institution is the one that speaks to us most closely. Take these documents and read them this evening. Even take notes. I think they should now take a copy of these with them as well.

Official: Let them take them this evening, we'll collect them again tomorrow. We don't have the authority for that.

Among the documents given overnight, a section of the integration document and other written notes were read. The necessary notes were taken.